I wanted to make Spike's victims people for an audience inclined not to care (and hence also inclined to complain that the Scoobies and/or Buffy didn't accept them fast enough) because with the exception of Nikki Wood (who died in an exciting fight scene), we never saw them on screen.
We see a few other victims of Spike killed on screen, but I think Nikki is the only one who is given a name and a story (although I think I've heard that the Chinese slayer is given a name in some sort of tie-in media, but that's not on the show itself, and is also an exciting fight scene).
However: does it really happen so often? And also: what if the show(s) contradict themselves or rather, remedy their narrative? For example, I'd say Damage on AtS textually and explicitly makes Dana a stand-in for Spike's victims.
I agree with that.
As for Faith: I'd argue that while Buffy has the no-sayer position in Sanctuary, the stand-in for Faith's victims position in the narrative is actually taken by Wesley, whom the audience has seen tortured by Faith on screen.
While I only mentioned Wesley in passing, I do think he plays a more important role as representing Faith's victims in Faith's redemption arc overall (both in the context of "Sanctuary" and in Faith's arc in AtS S4, where Buffy isn't even around). But Buffy's arguments as the no-sayer are not based on what Faith did to Wesley (does she even know?). They based on all the other things Faith did, and particularly focused on what Faith did to her.
But while both Dana and Wesley are better ways of representing Faith and Spike's victims than using Buffy, that still doesn't cross the line into letting Faith and Spike kill sympthetic characters whom the viewers know or whom the protagonists have personal affection for. And so I find myself wondering, could they have done something like that and still be given redemption storylines? Maybe the answer to that is "yes", since Andrew kills Jonathan and still gets a redemption story (kind of an odd one, and Andrew is kind of an odd character, but still).
I think the first time either show does that is in the BTVS episode Enemies, actually (the Mayor and Faith address him as Angelus once they think he's soulless, right? Whereas previously during s2 Spike and Dru used "Angel" for the soulless version as well)
You're right, I checked the transcript, and they are doing it in Enemies. I just didn't notice while watching because it is more subtle (and the Scoobies aren't doing it at this point, just Faith and the Mayor and Angel himself).
Angel never behaves as if someone else had spent those 150 years with Darla, or those twenty with Spike and Dru.
Good point. And the most extreme example of Angel-and-Angelus-are-too-different-people is in AtS S4 when none of the other Fanged Four are around. (That S4 storyline is just plain weird--you have an entire show built on a guilt-ridden protagonist seeking redemption and suddenly he's saying that he doesn't need to feel guilty for the things he did without a soul? Very strange.)
no subject
We see a few other victims of Spike killed on screen, but I think Nikki is the only one who is given a name and a story (although I think I've heard that the Chinese slayer is given a name in some sort of tie-in media, but that's not on the show itself, and is also an exciting fight scene).
However: does it really happen so often? And also: what if the show(s) contradict themselves or rather, remedy their narrative? For example, I'd say Damage on AtS textually and explicitly makes Dana a stand-in for Spike's victims.
I agree with that.
As for Faith: I'd argue that while Buffy has the no-sayer position in Sanctuary, the stand-in for Faith's victims position in the narrative is actually taken by Wesley, whom the audience has seen tortured by Faith on screen.
While I only mentioned Wesley in passing, I do think he plays a more important role as representing Faith's victims in Faith's redemption arc overall (both in the context of "Sanctuary" and in Faith's arc in AtS S4, where Buffy isn't even around). But Buffy's arguments as the no-sayer are not based on what Faith did to Wesley (does she even know?). They based on all the other things Faith did, and particularly focused on what Faith did to her.
But while both Dana and Wesley are better ways of representing Faith and Spike's victims than using Buffy, that still doesn't cross the line into letting Faith and Spike kill sympthetic characters whom the viewers know or whom the protagonists have personal affection for. And so I find myself wondering, could they have done something like that and still be given redemption storylines? Maybe the answer to that is "yes", since Andrew kills Jonathan and still gets a redemption story (kind of an odd one, and Andrew is kind of an odd character, but still).
I think the first time either show does that is in the BTVS episode Enemies, actually (the Mayor and Faith address him as Angelus once they think he's soulless, right? Whereas previously during s2 Spike and Dru used "Angel" for the soulless version as well)
You're right, I checked the transcript, and they are doing it in Enemies. I just didn't notice while watching because it is more subtle (and the Scoobies aren't doing it at this point, just Faith and the Mayor and Angel himself).
Angel never behaves as if someone else had spent those 150 years with Darla, or those twenty with Spike and Dru.
Good point. And the most extreme example of Angel-and-Angelus-are-too-different-people is in AtS S4 when none of the other Fanged Four are around. (That S4 storyline is just plain weird--you have an entire show built on a guilt-ridden protagonist seeking redemption and suddenly he's saying that he doesn't need to feel guilty for the things he did without a soul? Very strange.)