itsnotmymind | (no subject)

When I was lurking in comic book fandom—this was several years ago now—the most bashed character was not female, as often seems to be the case in the fandoms I've been involved with, but was instead Iron Man (this was shortly before his first movie, when Iron Man was unpopular from his role in the Civil War storyline, where he supported the registration of superheroes and had a secret prison in the Negative Zone that was a blatant Guantanamo Bay analogue). But here’s the weird thing, even though Iron Man was one of my favorites, bashing of him didn’t bother me much. Maybe because the worst was passed by the time I became a hard-core fan of the character? Maybe I was sympathetic towards people’s reasons for disliking the character. Maybe I’m sexist; maybe female character bashing bothers me more.

But, you see, Cable bashing bothered me a bit. Cable (son of Cyclops and Jean Grey’s clone, raised by Cyclops and Jean in the future) was another character I liked who wasn’t very popular. He was at that time in the book Cable & Deadpool, co-starring with the far more popular Deadpool (brain damaged mercenary who breaks fourth wall). People who said they only read Cable & Deadpool for Deadpool and wanted Cable gone. So maybe it’s not character bashing that bothers me. Maybe it’s *relationship* bashing. So what bothers me about Torchwood fandom is not that they bash Gwen, but that they bash her relationship with Jack. And Buffy fandom, when fans bashed Buffy *because* they like Spike, they are bashing Buffy and Spike’s relationship. The same with Yoko Ono among Beatles fans, since I am invested in both her relationship with John Lennon and her non-relationship with Paul McCartney. In complaining that Cable & Deadpool has too much Cable, they were bashing Cable and Deadpool’s relationship.

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I think it's bashing as a fan activity that really gets me. I don't mind negative critiques, and I don't mind one-note POSITIVE statements about a fandom or a character. But anything I would call "bashing" is usually a kind of un-nuanced, one-note negativity that I don't enjoy anyway, and which I think can really be covering up some nastiness down underneath.

I'm glad you brought up Yoko, because that is an example dear to my heart. When I first started getting into Beatles music John was already gone -- it was already a closed story -- but I was still fascinated by the historical Beatles fandom.

I could certainly understand not liking Yoko's modern conceptual art, or some of the weird noise experiments she and John were doing, or even not liking that stuff she does with her voice -- just because you don't like that kind of art. But there was a type of knee-jerk Yoko BASHING that seemed really ugly -- she was the worst, she ruined John, she broke up the Beatles, etc. And it always seemed to come from a very misogynist and racist place. Like, how dare she be an influence on John's art. How dare she be an artist in her own right. How dare he find her beautiful. How dare they be in love.

I will tolerate no Yoko-bashing!

(I still don't like The Wedding Album, though...)

I agree--bashing is something I wish people wouldn't do. But I've noticed it bothers me more sometimes than others.

Yoko bashing is terrible. I once had a Beatles book out of the library where someone had writing the words "bitch! whore!" with an arrow pointing to a picture of Yoko. I certainly think there are things to dislike about Yoko (I can't stand her singing voice), but the general attitude towards her is appalling. The Beatles broke up, it's sad, but get over it, and there's no way anyone outside the group could have had the power to break them up.

I don't think I've ever actually listened to The Wedding Album.

The Wedding Album is rather infamous, as it's basically nothing but her and John saying each other's names for 20 minutes.

I like a lot of her more pop songs, though. Her work on Double Fantasy and Approximately Infinite Universe is well worth checking out.

One thing a lot of John fans don't seem to get is that Yoko made him way less of a jerk. I mean, young John had a lot of depth and complexity (AND TALENT OF COURSE, DON'T FORGET THE TALENT), sure, but he also had a lot of jerkishness and misogyny that he had to get over. Yoko pretty much single-handedly turned him into a feminist.

The Wedding Album is rather infamous, as it's basically nothing but her and John saying each other's names for 20 minutes.

Wow, you think they would have gotten bored making that.

I like a lot of her more pop songs, though. Her work on Double Fantasy and Approximately Infinite Universe is well worth checking out.

I have heard her Double Fantasy work, but only the occasional song from Approximately Infinite Universe. I have the problem wherein I dislike her voice, but I think she's a better songwriter than she's usually given credit for.

Yoko pretty much single-handedly turned him into a feminist.

selenak once made a great post detailing John's failing as a feminist, post-Yoko (for example, how badly he continued to treat Cynthia during and after they divorce), but she did have a huge affect on him, and he did do a lot of things he probably wouldn't have done without her. (becoming a househusband, for example).