(no subject)

[itsnotmymind]

When I was lurking in comic book fandom—this was several years ago now—the most bashed character was not female, as often seems to be the case in the fandoms I've been involved with, but was instead Iron Man (this was shortly before his first movie, when Iron Man was unpopular from his role in the Civil War storyline, where he supported the registration of superheroes and had a secret prison in the Negative Zone that was a blatant Guantanamo Bay analogue). But here’s the weird thing, even though Iron Man was one of my favorites, bashing of him didn’t bother me much. Maybe because the worst was passed by the time I became a hard-core fan of the character? Maybe I was sympathetic towards people’s reasons for disliking the character. Maybe I’m sexist; maybe female character bashing bothers me more.

But, you see, Cable bashing bothered me a bit. Cable (son of Cyclops and Jean Grey’s clone, raised by Cyclops and Jean in the future) was another character I liked who wasn’t very popular. He was at that time in the book Cable & Deadpool, co-starring with the far more popular Deadpool (brain damaged mercenary who breaks fourth wall). People who said they only read Cable & Deadpool for Deadpool and wanted Cable gone. So maybe it’s not character bashing that bothers me. Maybe it’s *relationship* bashing. So what bothers me about Torchwood fandom is not that they bash Gwen, but that they bash her relationship with Jack. And Buffy fandom, when fans bashed Buffy *because* they like Spike, they are bashing Buffy and Spike’s relationship. The same with Yoko Ono among Beatles fans, since I am invested in both her relationship with John Lennon and her non-relationship with Paul McCartney. In complaining that Cable & Deadpool has too much Cable, they were bashing Cable and Deadpool’s relationship.

Comments

[mcjulie.livejournal.com]

I think it's bashing as a fan activity that really gets me. I don't mind negative critiques, and I don't mind one-note POSITIVE statements about a fandom or a character. But anything I would call "bashing" is usually a kind of un-nuanced, one-note negativity that I don't enjoy anyway, and which I think can really be covering up some nastiness down underneath.

I'm glad you brought up Yoko, because that is an example dear to my heart. When I first started getting into Beatles music John was already gone -- it was already a closed story -- but I was still fascinated by the historical Beatles fandom.

I could certainly understand not liking Yoko's modern conceptual art, or some of the weird noise experiments she and John were doing, or even not liking that stuff she does with her voice -- just because you don't like that kind of art. But there was a type of knee-jerk Yoko BASHING that seemed really ugly -- she was the worst, she ruined John, she broke up the Beatles, etc. And it always seemed to come from a very misogynist and racist place. Like, how dare she be an influence on John's art. How dare she be an artist in her own right. How dare he find her beautiful. How dare they be in love.

I will tolerate no Yoko-bashing!

(I still don't like The Wedding Album, though...)

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

I agree--bashing is something I wish people wouldn't do. But I've noticed it bothers me more sometimes than others.

Yoko bashing is terrible. I once had a Beatles book out of the library where someone had writing the words "bitch! whore!" with an arrow pointing to a picture of Yoko. I certainly think there are things to dislike about Yoko (I can't stand her singing voice), but the general attitude towards her is appalling. The Beatles broke up, it's sad, but get over it, and there's no way anyone outside the group could have had the power to break them up.

I don't think I've ever actually listened to The Wedding Album.

[mcjulie.livejournal.com]

The Wedding Album is rather infamous, as it's basically nothing but her and John saying each other's names for 20 minutes.

I like a lot of her more pop songs, though. Her work on Double Fantasy and Approximately Infinite Universe is well worth checking out.

One thing a lot of John fans don't seem to get is that Yoko made him way less of a jerk. I mean, young John had a lot of depth and complexity (AND TALENT OF COURSE, DON'T FORGET THE TALENT), sure, but he also had a lot of jerkishness and misogyny that he had to get over. Yoko pretty much single-handedly turned him into a feminist.

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

The Wedding Album is rather infamous, as it's basically nothing but her and John saying each other's names for 20 minutes.

Wow, you think they would have gotten bored making that.

I like a lot of her more pop songs, though. Her work on Double Fantasy and Approximately Infinite Universe is well worth checking out.

I have heard her Double Fantasy work, but only the occasional song from Approximately Infinite Universe. I have the problem wherein I dislike her voice, but I think she's a better songwriter than she's usually given credit for.

Yoko pretty much single-handedly turned him into a feminist.

selenak once made a great post detailing John's failing as a feminist, post-Yoko (for example, how badly he continued to treat Cynthia during and after they divorce), but she did have a huge affect on him, and he did do a lot of things he probably wouldn't have done without her. (becoming a househusband, for example).

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

And Buffy fandom, when fans bashed Buffy *because* they like Spike, they are bashing Buffy and Spike’s relationship.

THIS is something that bothers me and puzzles me a LOT, and is one of my biggest pet peeves as a fan. (And why I tread very carefully towards fic labelled "Spuffy".) How can anyone ship two characters if they don't like (much less hate) one half of that ship? In a fandom I used to be in, Moulin Rouge, I didn't get the sense that fans hated the female lead, Satine, so much as were disinterested in her. So they focused on Christian's relationships with the other male character; there were very few fics I saw that bashed Satine outright.

The same with Yoko Ono among Beatles fans

Likewise, Weren't John and Cynthia told to keep their marriage a secret at first so as to not upset the Beatles' fanbase? I don't know how much bashing she came in for, as I haven't read the histories.

Another RL example: I was a fan of Nicole Kidman's movies for about ten years or so (and I still admire her acting.) When she started dating her current husband, singer Keith Urban, suddenly I met a lot of KU fans online - he had a huge fanbase and good rapport with his audience as many country singers do; and his fanbase was very VERY vocal, mostly middle-aged women who were very enamoured of him, which included sexual fantasies. And because their beloved was marrying someone they disliked (presumably because they wanted him for themselves?) they were extremely vitriolic towards her, beyond the usual stuff thrown her way. It was not just disliking her it was absolute seething hate.

And this is where I'm back to shaking my head - you say you're the fan of someone and you LOVE him, love his work, etc but you publicly diss his wife? How would he feel if he saw the stuff his "fans" say about her? (I personally think that souled Spike would be horrified by the things that are said of Buffy. Fuck that, soulless Spike would be horrified (mostly.)

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

In a fandom I used to be in, Moulin Rouge, I didn't get the sense that fans hated the female lead, Satine, so much as were disinterested in her. So they focused on Christian's relationships with the other male character; there were very few fics I saw that bashed Satine outright.

That's interesting. I haven't seen Moulin Rouge, but it's always interesting to me how different fandoms deal with different characters.

Likewise, Weren't John and Cynthia told to keep their marriage a secret at first so as to not upset the Beatles' fanbase?

Yes, they were, and all the wives and girlfriends received hate from the fans. Ringo's girlfriend, and later wife, Maureen got scratched in the face by a fan. These days most of the Beatlemania-era wives are not bashed (I guess people compare them to what followed!), although they do tend to be viewed as boring (And I did once see someone criticize Cynthia for not appreciating John enough, because she wrote in her memoir that if she did her life over, she wouldn't be with him. Yes, how dare a woman not appreciate a man who abused her!)

And this is where I'm back to shaking my head - you say you're the fan of someone and you LOVE him, love his work, etc but you publicly diss his wife? How would he feel if he saw the stuff his "fans" say about her? (I personally think that souled Spike would be horrified by the things that are said of Buffy. Fuck that, soulless Spike would be horrified (mostly.)

Fans can be really appalling sometimes, and yes, I think Spike would be horrified both souled and not by that. In fact, I think those fans better hope Spike was souled, because soulless Spike might want to hurt them.