I Know You'll Never Love Me

[itsnotmymind]

Whenever I see someone complaining that BtVS S6 "ruined Spuffy", I think: "What was there to ruin?" Season 5 was the season of Spike the stalker with a one-sided obsession, and a Buffy who found the idea of being involved with Spike disgusting. That is, once a third party pointed out to her that Spike had feelings for her, something that previously had not even crossed her mind as a possibility despite some hints so obvious that during my first watch I kept thinking that she must have figured it out and was just ignoring it. And when at the end of Intervention Buffy does start to see a different side to Spike, she's far too caught up in her mother's death and protecting Dawn to pay Spike much in the way of attention or thought.

I shipped Buffy/Spike long before S6, but After Life is the first episode where I can actually see them as a couple, no matter how dysfunctional. After Life is the first episode where I can see Buffy having a real investment in the relationship. Where they establish a deep connection that is not just in Spike's mind. For me, After Life is where Spuffy begins.

Comments

[lokifan]

I agree about After Life (despite the loveliness of "I know that I'm a monster but you see me as a man", and After Life does call back to that shot) but I assume people mean S6 including Spike's attempted rape.

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

That moment in The Gift was nice, as was the kiss in Intervention. But I still don't get a sense of connection on Buffy's side. She sees that Spike is not quite what she thought, and she gives him (back?) her trust, but it's entirely about protecting Dawn. I actually remember being a teeny bit bothered by it at the time, the way she was using him, taking advantage of his feelings for her and offering jack in return. I mean, she didn't have a choice. She had to protect Dawn. And it's not like she tried to get Spike to do anything he didn't want to do. But it was miles from anything resembling an emotional connection, on her part.

That may be what people mean. Clearly, the writers did not feel comfortable letting Buffy and Spike get back together after Seeing Red.

But I personally do not see any Spuffy prior to S6. I see the feelings on Spike's side, but nothing approaching romantic feelings on Buffy's. And I don't understand how you can ruin something that doesn't exist.

Also: In S5, Spike stalked Buffy for a long period of time, going into her house and taking personal possessions. Then he chained her up and threatened to feed her to her ex. When she refused to admit feelings for him, he went on a rant about the female gender: "What the bleeding hell is wrong with you bloody women? What the hell does it take? Why ... do you bitches torture me?"

The fact that he ultimately tried to save her from said ex instead of letting Dru kill her is reassuring, but doesn't take back everything up until then. In the next episode, we see that he is still trying to get into her life despite her making very clear that she doesn't want him around her.

None of this is going to have same kind of audience reaction as something like the attempted rape scene in Seeing Red. Rape is both a horrible crime and hot-button real life issue in a way that vampires being vampires is not.

But on principle, the idea that a man character stalking a disinterested female character is a relationship that can be "ruined" just bothers me.

And on a level more focused on these specific characters, it irritates me on Buffy's behalf. Because Buffy in S5 would be revolted by the idea of her and Spike being considered a ship. But Buffy in S6 did feel an emotional connection to Spike, did acknowledge jealousy of his date in Hells Bells, did admit feelings for him in Seeing Red, did express unhappiness on finding out he was gone in Villains. Spike's love for Buffy starts in S5, but a relationship involves two people. It can't just be a frustrated vampire and the bot that he wishes resembled his love in all ways but one: it actually has feelings for him.

[lokifan]

But I personally do not see any Spuffy prior to S6. I see the feelings on Spike's side, but nothing approaching romantic feelings on Buffy's. And I don't understand how you can ruin something that doesn't exist... it irritates me on Buffy's behalf. Because Buffy in S5 would be revolted by the idea of her and Spike being considered a ship

Well, like I said I basically agree with you? And I have way complicated feelings about Spuffy that I really couldn't describe as shipping at all. BUT I totally think you can ruin something that doesn't exist - for shippers anyway. I can imagine how a Spuffy shipper would find S5 difficult, given Spike's gross behaviour, but also hopeful - and Buffy's reaction to the ship at the point isn't especially relevant (I mean, my biggest Buffy ship is Faith, and the whole enemies-to-lovers trope sort of relies on that dynamic). Shipping something isn't the same as considering it to exist right then, especially if it's an open canon.

But attempted rape between the characters you ship? Yeah, that can wreck it. Like, weird comparison, but I totally ship Harry and Draco from Harry Potter even though they hate each other and do bad things to each other in canon, because I can see points of connection where they'd fit and they're literary doubles. If an eighth book involved Draco trying to rape Harry, yep, my ship would be destroyed despite it not having existed in canon previously.

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

Mm, yeah I can I see where you're coming on on that one. With Buffy and Spike it's complicated by the soul/no soul thing, but since the what it means to be souled or soulless seems to have changed as the series progressed, and we never did get a clear answer about all the implications.

Maybe I just see shipping different than some fans? I mean, I did ship Buffy and Spike in S5. On some level, I shipped them as early as S2. But it still hurts my brain to think of their canon romantic relationship in S5, such as it was, as something to be "ruined". When fans say that are they saying was that the future of the ship was ruined?