Spike's insanity

[itsnotmymind]

Someone once said that it would have been interesting if Spike had been sane when he came back with the soul. That it was a bit of a cop-out for him to be crazy, because of course Buffy would feel sorry for him.

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I can see their point. The show has definitely relied on Buffy-feeling-sorry-for-Spike to deal with the things he’s done to her. “Intervention”, for example. Both the viewers and Buffy are encouraged to feel sorry for tortured Spike, so that we can forgive him for the sexbot. Obviously, the fact that Spike endured the torture to protect Dawn is what makes him one of the good guys again, but the torture itself helps to regain our and Buffy’s sympathy after the events of “Crush”, and the ordering of the Buffy bot.

On the other hand, I think it’s good that Buffy has to take care of Spike in early S7. It forces her to stop playing the “I-hate-you-but-you-can-come-into-my-house” game, i.e. where she insists that she hates and despises him while simultaneously letting him into every part of her life. She’s never had to put any work into her relationship with Spike: He was there when she wanted him to be, and there when she didn’t. Spike needing her help in early S7 forces her to ask herself if Spike, and her relationship with Spike, is worth putting effort into, and if so, why?

On the other hand, I really liked their interactions in “Beneath You” when he seemed to be sane…it would have been interesting to have more of that.

On the other, other hand I think it’s interesting that the way the writers handled the attempted rape was by, essentially, having Spike gradually lose or give up all power and control to Buffy, culminating in the basement scene in “Never Leave Me” where he tries to convince her to kill him, and fails, losing that last little bit of control (“You don’t know me. You don’t even know you.”). And putting Buffy in a position where she has all the control and she is very careful to treat Spike well and not misuse it is a good way of showing that she’s not S6 Buffy anymore (“I don’t hate like that. Not you, or myself. Not anymore.”).

Comments

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Not as completely crazy, but he was certainly rambling incoherently in front of the fireplace when Darla found him (and realized pretty soon just what was wrong with him). It occurs to me that Darla herself needed a while to get it together when she was resurrected human (and thus with a soul), but then we didn't see most of that (just the moment immediately after her resurrection and a glimpse in the season opener), which was months later); and she did have her less than stable moments afterwards (the "we're soul mates" joke comes to mind) afterwards, though as opposed to the guys, her solution was to hope to get rid of it again as soon as possible.

Given that Buffy's previous experience to vampires with and without souls had been limited to one, and Angel actually had given a demonstration he could fake both soullessness (in Enemies) and soulfulness (the all time worst morning after scene depended on her not knowing he had lost his soul) in the respective other state, I think if Spike had shown up and announced "I got my soul back" in however subdued fashion, she would have almost inevitably distrusted this. But seeing him in this state established to her from that moment onwards he'd really done it.

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

though as opposed to the guys, her solution was to hope to get rid of it again as soon as possible.

Angel did try to return to Darla and continue as if nothing had changed. I wonder, if he had the option, would he have gotten rid of it? Spike was in a different position having sought it out himself, and knew that losing it would just return him to the no-man's-land between man and monster he had been stuck in since getting the chip.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I think if Angel had been offered a possibility like a magic device at that point - i.e. China - he probably would have gotten rid of the soul, yes, and for a non dissimilar reason why Spike, offered the same thing in s7 by, say, the First Evil, would not have: having experienced the last two years as a no man's land of being neither one thing or the other. And while he always denied it was love, the sense of belonging to Darla at that point was far stronger than any other emotion. However, if the whole de-souling would have needed something like the killing of someone he couldn't kid himself deserved it anyway, then canon says he would have balked when it came to the point.

Mind you: all of this goes for Angel at this specific point in his timeline, only two years with a soul. (Which I think is a fair comparison with Spike in late s7 or in s5 of AtS.) Angel later is at different points both better and worse. Among other things, he's both settled into the soul-having state and aware this - or the memories of being Angelus - doesn't prevent him from acting badly. I always thought it was one of the better retcons/fleshing outs that AtS that to clarify Angel didn't spend the entire century between getting cursed and meeting Whistler living of rats in the gutter. The two lenghier interludes we hear about - the McCarthy era story from "Are you know or have you ever been..." and the WWII submarine tale - being cases in point, showcasing simultanously Angel's good and bad qualities, neither of which depend on his inner demon. I.e. the compassion for Judy and the leaving everyone to the paranoia demon after they lynched im = both Angel with a soul. Ditto for trying to keep both the human crew of the submarine and Spike alive on the one hand and pragmatically and ruthlessly siring the submariner on the other. Btw, that moment between Spike and Angel in the last flashback when Spike, re: Angel letting the newly sired submariner swim various miles to the shore, says "you really are a dick" and Angel replies "yes, I really am" with a look that makes it clear to Spike he's now getting kicked off the boat as well and expected to swim the rest is one of my favourite small moments. Because I'm like Joss: Angel being petty reliably cracks me up. I mean, sure, it's actually to Spike's benefit, if not humanities, because if he kept him on board he'd have had to hand him over to the proto-Initiative, but that's definitely not the only reason why he make him swim the rest.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I think if Spike had shown up and announced "I got my soul back" in however subdued fashion, she would have almost inevitably distrusted this. But seeing him in this state established to her from that moment onwards he'd really done it.

Really excellent points all, including the ones in your previous response. Buffy has to not just hear it but KNOW the truth of it fully, suss it out for herself. Because it's a huge development, and it's easy to focus on Spike and his heroism here and forget Buffy in thinking about this, but the guilt of "causing" Angel to lose his soul has weighed heavily in her heart all these years. Of course the notion that a vampire would go and get their soul for her - would turn her worldview completely upside down.

I haven't seen AtS so what I know of Angel's time after getting resouled is restricted to BtVS, but as you say, even though Spike sought his soul, it would be unfathomable to me if he didn't suffer from it. (In some ways, a vampire getting a soul is the opposite of Buffy dying and being resurrected - PG, Bargaining); in either case it wouldn't be BtVS if there weren't some sort of consequence or outcome that didn't disappear in the very next episode.

In fact I prefer it this way; Spike, in his usual impulsive and deluded way, thinks that getting his soul is going to be the big dramatic gesture that will make Buffy fall in love with him finally, without stopping to consider that what he's taking on is a lot bigger than that.