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itsnotmymindI've been read reading posts in ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
gabrielleabelle's livejournal. I've had a particular interest lately in her feminist posts, such as The Feminist Filter, wherein gabrielleabelle and her friends analyze each episode of Buffy from a feminist perspective (unfortunately, it only gets as far as the S7 episode Homecoming, since gabs has left the fandom). These posts are absolutely awesome, and you should check them out if you haven't before.
However, when I read the comments on the posts, there is a definite Spike bias. Spike gets a lot of praise, Xander and Angel get a lot of criticism. This is understandable. The vast majority of the posters on gab's lj are/were Spike fans, and Buffy/Spike shippers. We all have our biases. Furthermore, there was some very intelligent criticism of Spike from Spike fans, and there were some very vocal fans who stepped in to defend Xander and Angel. Sometimes to the point of distracting from the feminist intention of the series. Still, the overall bias was there.
This got me thinking. What are the feminist aspects of Angel and Xander and their arcs? What are the anti-feminist aspects of Spike and his arcs?
This post isn't about Angel and Xander. It's about Spike. It's basically an anti-feminist interpretation of his redemption arc and relationship with Buffy. This has been done before, of course--there are plenty of fans out there who hate that Spike was redeemed, and can't stand Buffy/Spike. Nonetheless, I wanted to do it myself as a thought experiment.
I think the interpretation I'm laying out below is a legitimate interpretation of Spike's arc in the last three seasons of Buffy. I certainly don't think it's the only interpretation. But I think it's there.
In this analysis, I'm certainly not going to deny that there are feminist and gender-swappy elements to Spike's arc. To do so would be dishonest. Every storyline on Buffy has feminist elements, and Buffy/Spike in my book wins for gender swappy. That is one of the reasons I like it so much. But I think there is an argument to be made for Spike's overall arc from BtVS S5 to BtVS S7 as anti-feminist.
When Spike first falls in love with Buffy in S5 he perceives himself as a dogged "nice guy". "What's it take?" he grumbles in Triangle when Buffy is not by impressed by him refraining from feeding off off injured people. He firmly believes that getting Buffy to love him is simply a matter of jumping through hoops. The idea that she might not be obligated to eventually fall for him is not on his radar. In his quest for Buffy's feelings, he stalks her, threatens to sick his vampiric ex on her, and, eventually, tries to rape her.
At first, the Scoobies, with the exception of Dawn but including Buffy, are entirely disgusted with Spike. Giles tells him, "We are not your way to Buffy. There is no way to Buffy." Spike is portrayed sympathetically (see: Fool for Love), but his point of view is not, initially, endorsed by the narrative.
From Intervention through early S6, things change. Spike shows himself capable of selfless acts. He tells Buffy he knows she'll never love him--a strong contrast to his insistence in Crush that he knows she she has feelings for him.
Pathetic stalker Spike has been replaced by noble knight Spike. Perhaps the implication is that Spike's stalker behavior was caused by his vampiric nature, while late S5 Spike is returning to his noble human nature. In a fantasy world, this makes sense. From a real world, this is problematic. Certainly, human beings are complicated, and someone in real life can be both abusive and noble. But the extent of Spike's nobility seems like a romanticization of the very "love" that he expressed earlier with stalking and a death threat. It's an engaging story--but it's not very feminist.
S6 is a wonderful subversion of the entire relationship. Spike finally gets what he wants--sex with Buffy. But she denies him any emotional connection, uses him, and abuses him. The creep factor of Spike's feelings for Buffy never goes away (see, for example, the balcony scene in Dead Things). Spike's feelings during their sexual relationship, while generally treated sympathetically, are not romanticized.
The season end with Spike regaining his soul by choice--and undergoing trials in order to do so. Spike's exact motivations for choosing to regain his soul are much-debated in fandom. We have this quote from Spike, though: "So you'll give me what I want. Make me what I was. So Buffy can get what she deserves." He does it for Buffy. Out of that same love that caused him to try to rape her.
Again, I find this to be a very powerful story. The idea that the exact same emotion could cause such wildly opposing actions draws me in. The fact that Spike has to pass trials in order to regain his soul is reminiscent of the trials Angel faces to save Darla in the AtS episode The Trial. Angel's deep love for Darla is enough to convince her to choose to die human--to not become a soulless monster again. Spike's trials, again, are strongly associated with love--the love for Buffy that turns him from monster to man.
Let's look at this from a feminist perspective.
As with S5, we see Spike engaging in disturbing violence towards Buffy, and then doing something hugely heroic for her. Again, I think it's important to remember that real people do things like this, too. The ambiguity of Spike's reasons for getting a soul--and the initial ambiguity as to whether Spike was trying to get a soul or get his chip removed--tones down the romanticism. But from a doylist sense, this is the end of the season. The very end. The last thing we see is Spike receiving his soul. I know, I know, it's a great ending. But it very clearly shows how loving a good woman can change a man. Spike, at this point, is still convinced that if he jumps through hoops x, y, and z, Buffy will love him. That's not the sole of Spike's motivation--he says, "So Buffy can get what she deserves". He cares about her well-being. But there's still the jumping through hoops aspect.
Ultimately, I would say that as of the end of this episode, there's a lot of possibilities as to how the story could end. The means the feminism of the story is open-ended.
In S7, Spike's perception of himself as a dogged "nice guy" is basically gone. Spike in Beneath You talks about getting his soul so he would be loved--jumping through hoops again--but I'm not quite sure if he's referring to the motivations of his soulless self, or if he still feels that way. For most of S7, Spike feels undeserving of Buffy's love.
However, in the context of Spike's greater arc, Chosen is very problematic.
Before we get there, let's talk a bit about Spike's non-Buffy and non-Scooby victims.
Soulless, non-chipped Spike was in Sunnydale in S2, S3, and S4. We see him kill onscreen in S2 and S3--I can't remember if he killed onscreen in S4 or not, but in S2 and S4 in particular, he almost certainly killed offscreen. That's a fair amount of dead people. Sunnydale is, at least in theory, a small town. Yet from Spike's chipping in S4 until the end of the series, the Scoobies never once encounter a loved one of the people he killed in Sunnydale.
In fact, soulless, chipped Spike never encounters any family or friends of anyone he killed. That would interfere with his staircase redemption* story, wouldn't it?
The only loved one of someone Spike kills that Spike actually encounters is Robin Wood. This is, of course, post-soul. By which point Spike does remorse.
...In theory.
"I don't give a piss about your mum. She was a slayer. I was a vampire. That's the way the game is played."
Yeah, I can't even.
Now, I do think Spike would have reacted differently if a loved one of less a powerful victim (say, one of those teenage girls he did unspeakable things to) had tried to kill him. That's not to say that killing a hero and leaving her kid without any parents isn't horrible--just that in another situation I do think Spike would have expressed remorse.
But on a Doylist level, this is literally the only time we see Spike confront a loved one of someone he personally killed. And that's how he reacts.
So, Chosen. Spike dies--and gets a very sparkly heroic death. A champion. I outlined above some of the complications with Spike's story from slayer of slayers to champion, but that's not directly relevant to this meta. What's relevant is that Buffy tells him she loves him.
Now, Buffy is entitled to have whatever feelings she wants about Spike. And I do love this scene. But the way it plays out in terms of the larger arc is the dogged "nice guy" trope. Spike has jumped through all his hoops, and his reward is that Buffy loves him. In a way this was inevitable, if not from Out of My Mind onward, than at least Fool for Love. He loves her soooooo much that, eventually, she has to love him back. Buffy's love is, ultimately, his reward for good behavior.
On a Watsonian level, there's a lot of debate about why Buffy told him she loved him, and whether she meant it or not. I think she meant it--but I also think that part of the reason she said it at the moment was as a reward of sorts. He had done so much for her that she wanted to give him something back. So while obviously this part is open to a great deal of debate, I think that the "reward" aspect of that line is both Watsonian and Doylist.
Then, Spike tells her she doesn't mean it.
Okay, telling someone their feelings is really rude and condescending. There's probably a lot of gender issues woven into to, but I'm not going to analyse that at the moment. I'm am going to point out that Spike has a long history of telling Buffy her feelings, starting with Fool for Love at the latest ("Come on. I can feel it, Slayer. You know you want to dance."), and culminating in the attempted rape in Seeing Red, where he tries to force himself on an obviously upset Buffy while insisting that despite what she has said repeatedly, she does love him.
But this time, he says she doesn't mean it, so now he's the noble hero. Even though it's actually part of the same pattern of behavior.
Finally, Buffy's last word on the series is "Spike." Now, there's obviously a lot more going on with Buffy at the end of Chosen than her relationship with Spike. Not being the only slayer anymore being one huge example. But I'm a symbols and patterns girl--and I do think the fact that her last word is the name of male character is kinda...problematic for a show that's supposed to be about empowering women. It's not that her male love interests can't be important her--but the last word she says on the show?
There are certainly feminist aspects to Spike's overall arc, but there are some very not-feminist interpretations. It's a redemption arc where a lovesick male character is ultimately rewarded with female affection. The portrayal of Spike's feelings for Buffy is complicated--just as real people are complicated--but ultimately, the positive aspects of Spike's love are romanticized to a disturbing extent. I saw a discussion of the Jessica Jones TV show where someone found some fanfic descriptions that paired Jessica with her creepy stalker. They expressed horror that these stories existed. I read the descriptions of the fanfiction, and none of them bothered me. They all seemed to be well away that Kilgrave (the stalker) was a horrible person, and that any consensual relationship between him and Jessica would be beyond creepy. There weren't fic I'd necessarily want to read, but based on the descriptions they don't seem to in any way downplay, excuse, or romanticize stalking. Compare that to many Spuffy fics (and Bangel fics, but that's not the point of this meta).
So yes, I think Spike's arc is questionable from a feminist perspective. And I hope to have done a good job of doing something that we in fandom all know we must do, but still always find difficult: Criticizing something I love.
*Staircase redemption: I refer to Spike's redemption as a "staircase redemption" because of the way he becomes "good" step by step. As opposed to Angel's light switch redemption. Yes, AtS S2 in particular really complicates the "light switch" aspect of Angel's redemption story, but I still refer to it as a light switch redemption becauseit cracks me up it's treated that way much of the time.
gabrielleabelle's livejournal. I've had a particular interest lately in her feminist posts, such as The Feminist Filter, wherein gabrielleabelle and her friends analyze each episode of Buffy from a feminist perspective (unfortunately, it only gets as far as the S7 episode Homecoming, since gabs has left the fandom). These posts are absolutely awesome, and you should check them out if you haven't before.However, when I read the comments on the posts, there is a definite Spike bias. Spike gets a lot of praise, Xander and Angel get a lot of criticism. This is understandable. The vast majority of the posters on gab's lj are/were Spike fans, and Buffy/Spike shippers. We all have our biases. Furthermore, there was some very intelligent criticism of Spike from Spike fans, and there were some very vocal fans who stepped in to defend Xander and Angel. Sometimes to the point of distracting from the feminist intention of the series. Still, the overall bias was there.
This got me thinking. What are the feminist aspects of Angel and Xander and their arcs? What are the anti-feminist aspects of Spike and his arcs?
This post isn't about Angel and Xander. It's about Spike. It's basically an anti-feminist interpretation of his redemption arc and relationship with Buffy. This has been done before, of course--there are plenty of fans out there who hate that Spike was redeemed, and can't stand Buffy/Spike. Nonetheless, I wanted to do it myself as a thought experiment.
I think the interpretation I'm laying out below is a legitimate interpretation of Spike's arc in the last three seasons of Buffy. I certainly don't think it's the only interpretation. But I think it's there.
In this analysis, I'm certainly not going to deny that there are feminist and gender-swappy elements to Spike's arc. To do so would be dishonest. Every storyline on Buffy has feminist elements, and Buffy/Spike in my book wins for gender swappy. That is one of the reasons I like it so much. But I think there is an argument to be made for Spike's overall arc from BtVS S5 to BtVS S7 as anti-feminist.
When Spike first falls in love with Buffy in S5 he perceives himself as a dogged "nice guy". "What's it take?" he grumbles in Triangle when Buffy is not by impressed by him refraining from feeding off off injured people. He firmly believes that getting Buffy to love him is simply a matter of jumping through hoops. The idea that she might not be obligated to eventually fall for him is not on his radar. In his quest for Buffy's feelings, he stalks her, threatens to sick his vampiric ex on her, and, eventually, tries to rape her.
At first, the Scoobies, with the exception of Dawn but including Buffy, are entirely disgusted with Spike. Giles tells him, "We are not your way to Buffy. There is no way to Buffy." Spike is portrayed sympathetically (see: Fool for Love), but his point of view is not, initially, endorsed by the narrative.
From Intervention through early S6, things change. Spike shows himself capable of selfless acts. He tells Buffy he knows she'll never love him--a strong contrast to his insistence in Crush that he knows she she has feelings for him.
Pathetic stalker Spike has been replaced by noble knight Spike. Perhaps the implication is that Spike's stalker behavior was caused by his vampiric nature, while late S5 Spike is returning to his noble human nature. In a fantasy world, this makes sense. From a real world, this is problematic. Certainly, human beings are complicated, and someone in real life can be both abusive and noble. But the extent of Spike's nobility seems like a romanticization of the very "love" that he expressed earlier with stalking and a death threat. It's an engaging story--but it's not very feminist.
S6 is a wonderful subversion of the entire relationship. Spike finally gets what he wants--sex with Buffy. But she denies him any emotional connection, uses him, and abuses him. The creep factor of Spike's feelings for Buffy never goes away (see, for example, the balcony scene in Dead Things). Spike's feelings during their sexual relationship, while generally treated sympathetically, are not romanticized.
The season end with Spike regaining his soul by choice--and undergoing trials in order to do so. Spike's exact motivations for choosing to regain his soul are much-debated in fandom. We have this quote from Spike, though: "So you'll give me what I want. Make me what I was. So Buffy can get what she deserves." He does it for Buffy. Out of that same love that caused him to try to rape her.
Again, I find this to be a very powerful story. The idea that the exact same emotion could cause such wildly opposing actions draws me in. The fact that Spike has to pass trials in order to regain his soul is reminiscent of the trials Angel faces to save Darla in the AtS episode The Trial. Angel's deep love for Darla is enough to convince her to choose to die human--to not become a soulless monster again. Spike's trials, again, are strongly associated with love--the love for Buffy that turns him from monster to man.
Let's look at this from a feminist perspective.
As with S5, we see Spike engaging in disturbing violence towards Buffy, and then doing something hugely heroic for her. Again, I think it's important to remember that real people do things like this, too. The ambiguity of Spike's reasons for getting a soul--and the initial ambiguity as to whether Spike was trying to get a soul or get his chip removed--tones down the romanticism. But from a doylist sense, this is the end of the season. The very end. The last thing we see is Spike receiving his soul. I know, I know, it's a great ending. But it very clearly shows how loving a good woman can change a man. Spike, at this point, is still convinced that if he jumps through hoops x, y, and z, Buffy will love him. That's not the sole of Spike's motivation--he says, "So Buffy can get what she deserves". He cares about her well-being. But there's still the jumping through hoops aspect.
Ultimately, I would say that as of the end of this episode, there's a lot of possibilities as to how the story could end. The means the feminism of the story is open-ended.
In S7, Spike's perception of himself as a dogged "nice guy" is basically gone. Spike in Beneath You talks about getting his soul so he would be loved--jumping through hoops again--but I'm not quite sure if he's referring to the motivations of his soulless self, or if he still feels that way. For most of S7, Spike feels undeserving of Buffy's love.
However, in the context of Spike's greater arc, Chosen is very problematic.
Before we get there, let's talk a bit about Spike's non-Buffy and non-Scooby victims.
Soulless, non-chipped Spike was in Sunnydale in S2, S3, and S4. We see him kill onscreen in S2 and S3--I can't remember if he killed onscreen in S4 or not, but in S2 and S4 in particular, he almost certainly killed offscreen. That's a fair amount of dead people. Sunnydale is, at least in theory, a small town. Yet from Spike's chipping in S4 until the end of the series, the Scoobies never once encounter a loved one of the people he killed in Sunnydale.
In fact, soulless, chipped Spike never encounters any family or friends of anyone he killed. That would interfere with his staircase redemption* story, wouldn't it?
The only loved one of someone Spike kills that Spike actually encounters is Robin Wood. This is, of course, post-soul. By which point Spike does remorse.
...In theory.
"I don't give a piss about your mum. She was a slayer. I was a vampire. That's the way the game is played."
Yeah, I can't even.
Now, I do think Spike would have reacted differently if a loved one of less a powerful victim (say, one of those teenage girls he did unspeakable things to) had tried to kill him. That's not to say that killing a hero and leaving her kid without any parents isn't horrible--just that in another situation I do think Spike would have expressed remorse.
But on a Doylist level, this is literally the only time we see Spike confront a loved one of someone he personally killed. And that's how he reacts.
So, Chosen. Spike dies--and gets a very sparkly heroic death. A champion. I outlined above some of the complications with Spike's story from slayer of slayers to champion, but that's not directly relevant to this meta. What's relevant is that Buffy tells him she loves him.
Now, Buffy is entitled to have whatever feelings she wants about Spike. And I do love this scene. But the way it plays out in terms of the larger arc is the dogged "nice guy" trope. Spike has jumped through all his hoops, and his reward is that Buffy loves him. In a way this was inevitable, if not from Out of My Mind onward, than at least Fool for Love. He loves her soooooo much that, eventually, she has to love him back. Buffy's love is, ultimately, his reward for good behavior.
On a Watsonian level, there's a lot of debate about why Buffy told him she loved him, and whether she meant it or not. I think she meant it--but I also think that part of the reason she said it at the moment was as a reward of sorts. He had done so much for her that she wanted to give him something back. So while obviously this part is open to a great deal of debate, I think that the "reward" aspect of that line is both Watsonian and Doylist.
Then, Spike tells her she doesn't mean it.
Okay, telling someone their feelings is really rude and condescending. There's probably a lot of gender issues woven into to, but I'm not going to analyse that at the moment. I'm am going to point out that Spike has a long history of telling Buffy her feelings, starting with Fool for Love at the latest ("Come on. I can feel it, Slayer. You know you want to dance."), and culminating in the attempted rape in Seeing Red, where he tries to force himself on an obviously upset Buffy while insisting that despite what she has said repeatedly, she does love him.
But this time, he says she doesn't mean it, so now he's the noble hero. Even though it's actually part of the same pattern of behavior.
Finally, Buffy's last word on the series is "Spike." Now, there's obviously a lot more going on with Buffy at the end of Chosen than her relationship with Spike. Not being the only slayer anymore being one huge example. But I'm a symbols and patterns girl--and I do think the fact that her last word is the name of male character is kinda...problematic for a show that's supposed to be about empowering women. It's not that her male love interests can't be important her--but the last word she says on the show?
There are certainly feminist aspects to Spike's overall arc, but there are some very not-feminist interpretations. It's a redemption arc where a lovesick male character is ultimately rewarded with female affection. The portrayal of Spike's feelings for Buffy is complicated--just as real people are complicated--but ultimately, the positive aspects of Spike's love are romanticized to a disturbing extent. I saw a discussion of the Jessica Jones TV show where someone found some fanfic descriptions that paired Jessica with her creepy stalker. They expressed horror that these stories existed. I read the descriptions of the fanfiction, and none of them bothered me. They all seemed to be well away that Kilgrave (the stalker) was a horrible person, and that any consensual relationship between him and Jessica would be beyond creepy. There weren't fic I'd necessarily want to read, but based on the descriptions they don't seem to in any way downplay, excuse, or romanticize stalking. Compare that to many Spuffy fics (and Bangel fics, but that's not the point of this meta).
So yes, I think Spike's arc is questionable from a feminist perspective. And I hope to have done a good job of doing something that we in fandom all know we must do, but still always find difficult: Criticizing something I love.
*Staircase redemption: I refer to Spike's redemption as a "staircase redemption" because of the way he becomes "good" step by step. As opposed to Angel's light switch redemption. Yes, AtS S2 in particular really complicates the "light switch" aspect of Angel's redemption story, but I still refer to it as a light switch redemption because
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Date: 2015-12-20 10:51 pm (UTC)I do think that some stories are more sexist than others, but there's always going to be ambiguity. It's frustrating when someone comes up with a feminist interpretation of a story that ignores or justifies away the non-feminist aspects of the story, or an anti-feminist interpretation of a story that ignores or justifies away the feminist aspects of the story. It seems to turn into, "This story is more feminist than that story", when there's no hard proof and it's just a matter of interpretation.
I absolutely believe that you can portray a rape from a feminist point of view. I'm just not convinced that Seeing Red is it. Notice that I didn't make the argument that I think is most common among fans who think Buffy/Spike is anti-feminist: That it's terrible to show a woman having a relationship with her attempted rapist. I didn't include that partly because it's been said so many times, and partly because this was already a pretty long post, and I didn't want to have to untangle all those issues.
I have intensely mixed feelings about Spike's attempt to rape Buffy, and how it was handled.
Spike in BtVS S7 still has a lot of issues with women (see: attitude towards Nikki Wood as a mother and his own mother as a mother), but he is in a very different place than he was in BtVS S5. Curious: In what way do you think Spike was reset in AtS S5?
As I hope I've made very clear, I'm totally down with Buffy/Spike, and I do think it's a well-done relationship with lots of interesting stuff and some very feminist stuff. You're absolutely true that the inclusion and believability of Buffy's point of view makes the story much more feminist than...a lot of other stories.
But I can't get a way from the inevitability of the story. Spike loves her to the point of becoming good for her--of course he's gonna get her love. That's what happens to male characters like this in stories like this. The irony, of course, is that when he finally gets it he doubts it and then dies.
Maybe I'm wrong. Are there stories where a man reforms himself for a woman and goes on a huge quest for her and she a. develops no feelings for him, and b. is not criticized for the narrative for failing to develop feelings?
Spike initially believes that Buffy owes him feelings because he does things for her. Buffy eventually develops feelings for him. Interpretations of later season Buffy are difficult given her difficulty in expressing emotion, but I think it's reasonable to argue that a big factor in her love for him is that he did something huge for her (got a soul). Out of cultural context it's just another story. But we have a cultural context. Male privilege encourages men feel entitled to a women's feelings and bodies. "Nice guys" think that if they just do x, y, z, a woman will love them, and if she doesn't, she's the one at fault. Buffy/Spike is far from the worst offender, but it still plays into that particular idea. The idea that "no" will turn into "yes" if you keep bugging the woman and performing grand gestures for her is not feminist at all.
no subject
Date: 2015-12-21 07:31 am (UTC)True. Mind you, it's very closely related to the "knight performing feats for his lady" trope (it's not quite the same thing, because in medieval literature, the lady with rare exceptions isn't supposed to "reward" the knight by requiting his love non-platonically), which has been around a few centuries and will be a few centuries more. (I'm not completely immune to it myself, see my falling completely for Dench!M and Craig!Bond, who are a perfect example of this trope translated into modern terms.)
Anyway, back to your actual subject - excellent post, btw. -; thoughts to some issues:
1.) Us not seeing any victims (and relations of) of Spike other than Robin and Nikki Wood: and Holden, but since that was a killing performed while Spike was Under The Influence, it doesn't count the same way. It's one of the reasons why I wrote my "Five in One" story re: Spike's victims, to give faces to those stories. It's also why I love the AtS season 5 episode that culminates with Spike and Angel having their chat about being monsters, and Spike's conclusion that even if he wasn't the one who tortured Dana, there were others he did exactly these things to.... but I'm also torn as to whether or not it would have been an even better episode if they actually HAD let Spike be the one who tortured Dana, without taking it back. Since David Fury was a co-writer, I wonder whether in the first draft there was no reveal of another vampire, and it had to be changed because of Spike's popularity?
2.) Feminist aspects of Angel's and Xander's arcs: deserves a post of its own, but I'll say this here: Xander's arc actually does the "Nice Guy expects to be loved eventually if he does enough" arc right, because let's not forget, Xander starts out believing just this about himself and Buffy. And in many ways, the first season (arguably the only one written without the expectation of Buffy/Angel as something long term) sets him up in a way that in 1980s high school movies would make him the obvious endgame for the heroine. (And given that s1 is still related, tone wise, to the movie in a way later season's aren't, with Xander as the Pike analogue, that might very well have been the narrative intention.) But it's not what actually happens in the show. To me the point where Xander even subconsciously lets go of any expectation that Buffy will eventually fall in love with him is Restless, the playground in his dream and the moment where Dream!Buffy calls him her brother. Now I'm not saying Xander always handled not being Buffy's romantic choice gracefully (though his attitude re: Angel is certainly not just about this, because Angelus), that he couldn't be petty on occasion, or that he let go of the idea he knew what was romantically good for her (though I think it's telling fandom wants to have his guts for his pro-Riley speech in "Into the Woods" yet ignores Buffy casually dissed Cordelia in s2 when telling Xander "I just think you could do better" - meaning Willow at that point. Friends do occassionally offer overbearing romantic advice to each other). But in general, he was a good friend to her, accepting the relationship she actually wanted to have with him, on her terms, and didn't let this stop him from coming through for her in terms of heroic deeds. (The one time he refuses to do something in late s7 and turns against her, he has the considerable excuse of having just lost an eye.) So Xander's story vis a vis Buffy definitely makes him an example of someone who starts out believing the "she'll love me if I try hard enough and persist" trope applies to him, finds out this isn't the case and actually accepts it, without the narrative then performing a U-Turn by making him endgame after all.
(Footnote: I've heard via fannish osmosis that Xander and Buffy eventually have a thing in the comics, or at least a one night stand, but seriously, I don't care about the comics. Tv canon only.)
no subject
Date: 2015-12-21 04:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-12-22 09:32 pm (UTC)Okay, when I was a teenager, I could never look at my friends' younger siblings in any way as a potential romantic interests. Now that I am an adult, I still can't look at those same younger siblings in any way as a potential romantic interests. Even if they're only three years younger than me. Xander remembers meeting Dawn when he was about sixteen and she was about eleven. Dawn having a crush on Xander at age fourteen was cute. Xander returning it bothers me.
no subject
Date: 2015-12-22 09:27 pm (UTC)The part that really annoys me about not meeting Spike's victims is S4-S6. Because I really don't think Spike felt any remorse for hurting anyone outside of Buffy's circle pre-soul. So what would the Scoobies have done if someone had shown up and said, hey, that guy killed my sister. Not addressing the situation pre-soul feels sort of like a cop-out. But then, Spike is far from the only character on the show to have some degree of copping-out with regards to his darkness.
Damage is an awesome episode. But yeah, it seems a bit cowardly to have it actually have been some OTHER vampire. That gives us more distance.
I've been thinking about Xander's arc on Buffy, and it does strike me that while he has a "nice guy" attitude in the early seasons, it's not really supported by the narrative. What does seem to be more supported by the narrative is the "boys will be boys" attitude that a lot of the characters seem to have, at least at that point on the show. Gabriellabelle in one of her posts talks about how Xaner in Never Kill a Boy on the First Date tries to look at Buffy through a mirror when she's changing, even though she told him to look away. It's never addressed. Unless hyena!Xander was supposed to address this in some way? Maybe I should rewatch the high school seasons before I make this analysis.
I really like Buffy and Xander's relationship in the later seasons. Xander and Willow friendship is my favorite, but Xander and Buffy are cool.
Buffy is a show that I felt ended at exactly the right time, and in the right way, so I have no interest in Buffy comics. Also, I have this sort of vague interpretation of Buffy in S7 giving up her specialness and solo hero status by empowering the potentials, and therefore from a meta point of view giving up her role as the protaganist. So while I wouldn't have minded seeing her, say, guest starring on AtS (She definitely needed more closure with Spike), I lost interest in anything that involved her being a main character. So, no comics for me.