BtVS S5 Rewatch

[itsnotmymind]

I've been rewatching Buffy season five, and just finished Into the Woods. Some thoughts on the season so far:


1. Of all the missed opportunities on Buffy, the one that frustrates me the most is the way Dawn's origins are almost entirely dropped after S5. Just an observation in S6 that she's "not the key anymore", and then nothing? Except Willow threatening to turn her back into an energy ball...but it's never explored what this really means to Dawn and the people around her, not after S5. She didn't exist for the first fourteen years of her life. That's going to be a little more than one damn season's worth of angst. In S6 she's afraid that Buffy doesn't want her around...and this is never connected to her keyness? Her lack-of-realness?

This is as important an aspect of Dawn as being the Slayer is of Buffy. And it's basically just dropped.

2. "I do know I was ... pretty out of it, and I had ... not-not a dream ... exactly, more like I had this ... knowledge, i-it just came to me like ....truth, you know? Even though it didn't seem...possible, even though I shouldn't even think such things." Yes, that would be what being crazy feels like. Although of course for Joyce, the knowledge turns out to be true! Actually, the idea of crazy people having access to the reality of the world in a way that sane people do not possess is very interesting and strange. On ByVS, we see it with both the insane people who can see Dawn's true form in S5 and with Drusilla.

3. Ben says that he's been cleaning up Glory's messes "whole damn life". Did he turn into Glory when he was a toddler? Evil toddler Glory throwing tantrums and tearing down the walls? Did his parents know? Why Ben, anyway? Have people written fic about Ben's childhood? A fandom this big, they must have. Hmmm.

4. I'm oddly lukewarm on Spike this time around. Fool For Love was awesome, don't get me wrong (I forgot that Spike claimed that Nikki Wood liked it when he killed her. Um.), but on a scene-by-scene basis I'm just not enjoying him as much as I did back when. I am really loving Dawn, though. But I have to admit, her height drives me crazy. She's fourteen! She shouldn't be that tall!

5. I alternate between liking Riley and wanting to bang his head repeatedly into a brick wall. Prior to Riley letting himself get bit by vampires, I actually think the problems in his relationship with Buffy were a no-fault situation. He had nothing was her and was lost, and wanted a more intense relationship. Buffy had family, friends, school, Slayer duties, etc., and wanted something calmer. And when he's not having attacks of stupidity, Riley is a good boyfriend. He really is there for her throughout her mother's illness, in whatever way she needs.

But, okay. You have problems with your relationship. Do you, A. Talk to your significant other about your problems, B. Wait until your significant other's mother is away from death's door, and then talk to her about your problems, or B. Tell one of her friends about your problems but not her, and then, while her mother is at death's door, go behind her back and metaphorically cheat on her?

Fandom, as well as the characters on the show, focus on the level of feeling Buffy has for Riley, whether it qualifies as "love", whether she "loves" him as much as he loves her, whether she "loves" him the same way she "loved" Angel and/or the same way she will "love" Spike. One of the most dismaying parts of the confrrontation between Buffy and Riley is when she says, "I've given you everything that I have, I've given you my heart, my body and soul!" And he tells her he doesn't feel it.

I don't think Riley meant to blame Buffy for his choice to let himself get bit. But when someone catches you betraying them and your first response is to explain to them why you did it, which happens to because they aren't passionate enough about you...the framework is that Riley just did an incredibly unloving act to Buffy because he loves her sooooooooooooo much and she doesn't love him. And the onus is on her to prove that she loves him. Because of course he loves her. Even though he just hurt her, and she didn't hurt him.

Well, I guess you always hurt the one you love.

It's worth noting that before going to talk to Buffy, Riley visits Spike and goes from threatening him to drinking with him. The drinking past commences right after Spike observes, "Ain't love grand?" Right after Spike told Riley that if he could, he would kill Riley, someone whom Buffy clearly cares about and relies on regardless of whether or not she's in "love" with him. And Spike would do this why again? Oh, right. He's in love with Buffy.

Here's a question: What would have happened if Riley hadn't been given that offer by the army, that short deadline? What if Buffy had had more time to decide if her relationship with Riley was something worth fighting for? Would they have stayed together? Would they have broken up, anyway?

6. I really, really like Anya and Xander as couple, and I'm not sure why. Because I get why people think he's not the crazy about her. There is a sense of convenience to their relationship. And yet...they clearly have a great sex life, and I love the way they play off of each other. They seem very...comfortable with each other, and that's not a bad thing, you know.

Comments

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

1. Agreed that the hand-waving of Dawn's keyness post-S5 was a huge missed opportunity. (It's sort of back in the comics, fwiw.)

2. Oh, have I got a fic-rec for you! losing farther, losing faster by teaotter is an amazing look into Joyce's coming to terms with everything with her perceptions being changed by the tumor and strong magic. So good.

3. I actually do not know of any fic about Ben's childhood. Strange. But it probably doesn't have any connection with that weird scary lady that shows up sometimes.

5. I'm sort of in the "it's all love, darling" camp, so I don't parse things too fine. I do think that Riley and Buffy are both very young and having very different crises at the same time, which makes a relationship difficult. It was all just too much strain. Could they have worked it out? Buffy was willing, I think, but Riley needed to get his life in order. That's something he could have done in Sunnydale, imo. We never actually knew what he was doing with his time. Making keys down at the hardware store? What?

Here's a link to a poll/discussion on Xander's speech in ITW: http://fantas-magoria.livejournal.com/293475.html

6. I'm not sure if I that enthusiastic about Xander and Anya as a couple. There something there, but I am uncomfortable with his frequent embarrassment about her. That's not a good sign, usually.

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

I will take a look at your links later!

3. Maybe Ben and the weird scary lady were working together. :g

5. Riley needed to have some kind of life outside of Buffy, I think. But at the same time, I think whatever life he had would ultimately have had to come second to Buffy's Slayer duties, and he needed to be okay with that.

I think he needed a lot more than that, because he was really in a bad place at the time he left, but the above would probably be on the list of Riley needs.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

2. There's some troubling things about the "insanity as insight" element, but I think it is also that it's a recognition that insanity is sometimes a social construct designed to label and dismiss the Other (especially the feminine). I had a talk recently about the Madwoman in the Attic-type tropes. I think that is something of what we're seeing -- the insane in this case are insane *because* the social filters have been lifted and they can see aspects of reality that are difficult to deal with directly, which is the kind of insanity that the verse is most interested in.

5. I tend to think Riley's pretty far around the bend, and I don't mean morally, I mean, like, emotionally. It's not just metaphorically cheating, it's also playing Russian Roulette. He's got a serious death wish. He's also running experiments on himself, like Maggie used to do to him, and can't really escape from Initiative-ways of thinking. Which means it's really not about Buffy, except insofar as he defines himself by wanting to be the guy for Buffy because that is what gave him the strength to escape from Maggie's clutches (which Forrest, for example, didn't, since he got zombified according to Maggie's plan even after she died). I think his calculus is something like: if he can use his clandestine vamp visits to hold himself together the rest of the time, then it's ultimately still the least risky option; he is risking death by vamp but it avoids certain breakdown which will be inconvenient for Buffy when she's got more important things than him to deal with. Of course, he betrays her trust in the process, cheats on her, and risks him actually dying which will be much worse than Riley having another Out Of My Mind-style inconveniently timed near-fatal breakdown or just leaving her.

6. I think Xander loves Anya, but is also embarrassed by her. I also think Anya loves Xander, but also thinks he's an idiot and a failure -- like in "The Replacement," she is not exactly sensitive about Xander's own problems with his parents, and starts yelling at him to get a real job to buy her things in front of his friends and a stranger when they are apartment hunting. ("You should get a boring boyfriend! Like Xander" from s4.) Somewhere in s5 once Xander starts getting his act together, Anya does start seeing him in a genuinely positive light, and Xander does and doesn't keep up.

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

1. When I was in the hospital recovering from my psychotic break, I remember asking one of the staff, when my head was starting to clear, "Can you be aware of true things when you're crazy that you aren't aware of when you're sane?" He looked confused, and then told me that this didn't happen. Which I was very relieved about, because the things I was "aware" of were quite disturbing.

Of course, if you think about, dreams have always been seen as symbolic or possibly prophetic. There was a time in the United States (You're Canadian, right? I know nothing about Canada which is creepy because my state borders on Canada.) when they were admissible evidence in court. And drugs, too, have often been seen as a way to deeper knowledge.

Did you know the story about Paul McCartney's first time using marijuana? He believed he had found the meaning of life, so he had the Beatles' roadie Mal Evans running around trying to find him a pencil and paper so he could write it down. The next day, he read his words of wisdom: "There are seven levels."

5. Riley really is a mess this season, yes. And he clearly doesn't know how to deal. I just wish he hadn't told Buffy that he did it because of his relationship with her, because this upsets me.

I wonder what would have happen if Spike hadn't found out what Riley was doing and shown Buffy? The way he tells the vampire to bite "harder" makes me think he was just getting worse. I don't think he would have told her anytime soon.

Actually, it's surprising she hadn't noticed the bite marks.

6. There is that aspect of Xander and Anya--they love each other, but they don't think well of each other, but they don't think well of themselves, either, so they deserve each other. Xander wasn't entirely wrong, in Hell's Bells, to think it could easily end in misery.

And that's not even taking into account the whole denial about Anya's past that we've discussed before.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

1. Right, part of why it's problematic is because it is important to let people know that what they think is true during times of insanity is not necessarily "the real truth."

That is amazing that dreams used to be admissible as testimony. I don't know if this was true in Canada.

I think I had heard of the "there are seven levels" story before, but I can't quite remember. It is very funny and, um, perhaps relatable. I may know someone who did come up with some actually good and workable physics research ideas while on marijuana though.

5. Well, Riley did start wearing turtlenecks -- but it is pretty amazing she didn't notice the bite marks during sex. And yes, it is very upsetting that Riley suggests that this was because of *her*.

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

1. Spectral evidence, as wikipedia tells me it was called, was a thing during the Salem witch trials.

I used to dream stories, both fanfiction and original fiction, while sleeping, and a lot of it made sense. I've dreamt fandom meta, too. Not lately, though.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

I think I've dreamt stories, and occasionally written them down, but not lately.

I guess there's the famous story of Frankenstein coming to Mary Shelley in a dream. Apparently Dali would fall asleep in his chair holding a pencil, so that the pencil would hit him (in the knee or something?) the moment he fell asleep and wake him, so that he could remain as close to that conscious-unconscious boundary as possible.

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

I actually did write a short story once based on things I believed during my psychotic break, but I didn't like it very much.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

1) I, too, feel that they have dropped the ball when it came to Dawn. So many awesome possibilities could have been done with her character. It seems the writers want her to be more relatable? Or they have lost interest in her?

3) I'm not sure it's literal. Ben must said that out of frustration.

6) I find the portrayal of Xander/Anya to be very realistic to real life couples (and friendships) and I do enjoy them - even though I like Xander/Cordelia more. I agree with what you said about Xander and Anya loving each other but not "respecting" who they are. Fandom focuses more on the Xander side of the problem and completely neglect how insensitive Anya can be to Xander, especially when he used to live in the basement.

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

1. Given that they still had episodes centered on her (All the Way, Older and Far Away, Potential), I don't think the writers lost interest in her. Maybe they did think ignoring her keyness made her more relatable? If they did think that, I disagree. I haven't read many interviews with the writers, so I don't know if any of them ever gave an explanation.

3. When do you think Glory first appeared? Maybe she existed in Ben's head before she physically appeared?

6. I prefer Xander/Cordelia, too.

I'm trying to decide, watching, how much of Xander's correction is about Anya, and how much is about Xander. Anya does want to know human ways. The way Xander says things like, "we've talked about this" kind of implies to me that she wants him to correct her when she gets it wrong, that this is something they've agreed on. But then other times it seems like Xander is embarrassed by her and is pressuring her to act more normal for his own reasons.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

3) I'm a bit confused about the Glory story. When did she lose the key? Was she always looking for the key? Seems that things only started in S5, but the key could have been formed into other items.

6) I think it started with Anya wanting guidance to how to behave like a human and she did need it in S4. Xander’s corrections did save her from some situations (usually with Giles who looks like he's about to kill Anya sometimes if it weren't for Xander) however, later, those corrections became a habit for both of them and they didn’t realize that.

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

3. I can't remember if they tell us how long the monks had the key for, or how they acquired it. How did the knight of Byzantium get involved? Probably someone somewhere has put together a timeline from what we know, but I bet it has loads of holes.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Hmm I think the explanation for Ben and Glory as I always understood it was that the original plan was for her to be completely trapped within a human form (Ben), but then as time went on she became more and more powerful and his body was no longer enough to contain her. That was the explanation in Spiral I believe, and towards the end of season 5 Ben is really shocked when he is sacked from the hospital and finds out just how long he's been ~missing~, so presumedly Glory was mostly contained throughout his childhood and certainly didn't take over his body for such long periods?

And agreed on Dawn, I remember that I was always waiting for them to do something cool with her as the Key in season 6 and couldn't believe that they would completely drop it. It actually made me wonder why the monks wouldn't have just gone along with the plan to safely destroy the key in the first place before Glory could get her hands on it. I mean nothing against Dawn, but turning the key into human form was a pretty risky plan of the monks to supposedly harness its power for the forces of light, but ultimately keeping the key really didn't do anything to benefit the world, Dawn just turned out to be a regular teenage girl for the final two seasons. Nice for Buffy to gain a little sister and all, but probably not worth the risk of all the damage that Glory could have caused with the Key

[lokifan]

1. TRUTH. Although I think the Key-ness is definitely part of Dawn's S6 tailspin.

2. Mad seers and madness giving insight is such a classic literary trope.

4. Fourteen-year-old girls are usually close to their adult height, though? I mean, a lot of my female students that age are hitting their last major growth spurt.

5. Totally agreed re: Riley and Buffy. He's a good boyfriend and they're happy together until he hits that tailspin and reacts so badly. And all the Buffy-blaming makes me >: That said, I feel like he gets an unnecessary degree of hate in fandom.

6. *nodnod* I love them! And I think there is convenience there, but it develops into something very real. I mean, I know plenty of people IRL who fell in love with their fuckbuddies and/or people they met conveniently at work.

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

1. Come to think of it, a big part of Buffy and Joyce's arguments for Dawn's humanity is their love for her and their connection with her. In S6, Joyce is dead and Buffy is checked out. Where does that leave Dawn? I would have liked to see it more explicitly tied to doubts about her existence. Also, maybe how Buffy's feelings about his in S6 were connected to any doubts Buffy may have had about her existence.

2. I think it predates literature.

4. Hmm. You may be right? I have to admit, it's not the kind of thing I often think about consciously. All I know is that Dawn's height in S5 stands out to me in an annoying way (whereas I think by S7 it felt fine to me). Then again, individuals are different so maybe there are girls who have more-or-less hit their adult height at fourteen.

Then there's my mom, who claims ran around for several years thinking she was an inch shorter than she was because she hadn't noticed she'd had a little growth spurt around age eighteen. She thought all her boyfriends were lying about their height :)

5. I agree that Riley gets way too much hate. I once saw someone try to argue that he was most evil character on the show. But at the same time, I get really frustrated with him for how he handled the break-up.

6. :)