30 Days of Buffy, Day #23

[itsnotmymind]

Day #01: Favourite season
Day #02: Favourite episode
Day #03: Favourite song used in an episode
Day #04: Favourite female character
Day #05: Least favourite female character
Day #06: Favourite male character
Day #07: Least favourite male character
Day #08: Favourite friendship
Day #09: Favourite romance
Day #10: Least favourite season
Day #11: Least favourite romance
Day #12: Least favourite episode
Day #13: Favourite potential slayer
Day #14: Favourite female villain
Day #15: Favourite male villain
Day #16: Episode you like that everyone else hates - Favourite piece of monologue
Day #17: Character you relate to the most
Day #18: Character who didn’t get enough screen time
Day #19: Character you like that everyone else hates
Day #20: Best Spike-centric episode
Day #21: Best Willow-centric episode
Day #22: Best Xander-centric episode
Day #23: Two characters you wanted to get together that never did
Day #24: Favourite example of 90s special effects
Day #25: Favourite Buffyverse saying
Day #26: Favourite Scooby moment
Day #27: Cutest moment
Day #28: Character you love to hate
Day #29: Episode you hate that everyone else loves
Day #30: What you think made Buffy so great


Day #23: Two characters you wanted to get together that never did
I went through a phase where I was a Faith/Spike shipper. This started before they even sort of met in "Who Are You". I'm not sure that they would work as a long-term couple, but they would be hot in the short-term.

Comments

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Did you ever read snowpuppies' "Who are You (the Champagne remix)" from this past spring? It's got implied Faith/Buffy (Faith stealing/raping Buffy's body because she wants to be with Buffy, as opposed to canon's she wants to get revenge/escape her identity/be Buffy) and Faith/Spike. Good stuff.

I think Faith and Spike are just way too much alike - they'd implode on impact. Definitely short-term as you say.

Faith and Spike occupy such a similar place vis a vis Buffy as her dark mirror - it's brilliant the way their paths cross in WAY, sort of formalizing the "handoff" if you will, and foreshadowing Buffy's descent into darkness and the carnal turn her relationship with Spike will take. IF the culture had been different back in the day (and Joss had been bolder) Faith might have played that role entirely - you could redo the entire series with Faith in the role of Spike to Buffy, and have a very similar outcome. (Buffy's worst acts of violence are against the two of them, the worst violations visited upon her body - aside from being resurrected - are by Faith and Spike. etc)

I used to claim (loudly) that I could never see Buffy as bisexual or lesbian - now I'm writing my first Fuffy fics. I've tried to toy with the idea of Spike/Buffy/Faith, but I can't make it work in mind. Partly because I'm also turning into a Spangel shipper. (oy vey)

[kikimay]

WANNA READ YOUR FUFFY! *__*
Also, why are you turning into a Spangel shipper? I would like to know more about that. (Clearly when you have time and if you wish) I also don't see Buffy as lesbian or bisexual, but I wrote a Fuffy story and I was kinda fascinated by her relationship with Satsu in the comics, even if the execution wasn't the best.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

The reason I'm turning into a Spangel shipper - although I don't actually go out and read a lot of Spangel fic or seek it out (partly because I'm not into reading graphic sex scenes, gay or straight, and I don't generally read m/m stories) - is that they are actually very very interesting together. with Spangel I can understand why, in the opinion of at least some scholars, young women today write so much m/m slash (esp Japanese manga): with two men, you have two people who have more equality socially and therefore in the relationship. There are always power imbalances of course, (and Buffy and Spike play with this and turn it on it's head in some ways (and in other ways not).)

and Angel is just so damn interesting with Spike in ways that he isn't with anyone else (at least in fanfiction) to me; and they have so much history going on as well. There doesn't seem to be the same trends towards fluff and domestication or woobification as there are in Spuffy fics; each partner in Spangel holds his own I think because they are each male, whereas Buffy and Spike still carry the weight of cultural expectations of "male" and "female". Even when we play with and turn those things on their head, we're acknowledging the existence of those expectations.

But also, I've read some really fine Angel/Spike (or Angel, Spike) stories.

I've also read at least one really excellent Buffy/Angel/Spike fic by Foxinator (the bookmark for which is lost on the desktop that burned in the fire. HUNDREDS of btvs fic, meta and artwork bookmarks that I relied on and referred to, "POOF!" gone.)

But as I said I don't go seeking out Spangel fic so much as I like the idea in my head. (In my post-series Dawn & Buffy fic that I saved from the fire and need to recreate, the boys are mentioned briefly by Buffy so it's indicated she's living with them and Dawn jokes about them having sex with each other, but in my head I honestly have no idea if it's Buffy/Spike/Angel, or Buffy as roommate to Spike/Angel. And weirdly enough, I don't care. It'll be up to the reader I guess.)

I also think maybe I've read so much Spuffy fic that I don't feel I have anything to add, and canon Buffy&Spike is so powerful in it's own right that there may be things that could have been done differently but I don't feel a great need to "fix" things.

Of course there is plenty of Fuffy out there as well and I've read some very good (Angearia, snowpuppies) and very bad. Or well-written but nothing more than an excuse for a sex scene.

That was a WAAAAYYY longer answer than you were wanting I'm sure!

I'd love to read your Fuffy too! My post series stories I've been writing lately sometimes imply Fuffy and sometimes more Faith/Dawn. It's funny, I've gone for decades without writing about women in implied or overtly lesbian relationships and now I'm suddenly and finally exploring that a bit more in fic.

I was kinda fascinated by her relationship with Satsu in the comics, even if the execution wasn't the best.

I think in the comics the best characters were often the original ones, or ones thinly or poorly drawn in the series, such as Kennedy; whereas the comics could not compete with or touch the rich characterizations of the canon characters from the series. (Although oddy enough some of the earlier non-canon comics do just that perfectly well.) I liked Satsu and can see why she's got a devoted fanbase -she is an interesting character, with a quiet strength and competence that we haven't seen since Tara in S6 I think; and the comics mostly sidelined the interrelationships of women to each other that is such an important part of the series.

But execution problems? Oh goodness, yes. I get that in the '90's a straight guy like Joss might be unfamiliar with even the concept of bisexuality but now? No excuse. I like that Buffy was worried about Satsu because everyone she's ever loved has gotten hurt (which, actually? not her fault most of the time) BUT she says in the same breath she's not gay? But then they have goodbye sex anyway? HUH? What self-respecting lesbian would consent to having sex with a woman who says she's not lesbian and therefore can't love her? (I know lesbians who have but they've all had deep self-confidence problems.) And really why does it matter anymore?

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

Did you ever read snowpuppies' "Who are You (the Champagne remix)" from this past spring? It's got implied Faith/Buffy (Faith stealing/raping Buffy's body because she wants to be with Buffy, as opposed to canon's she wants to get revenge/escape her identity/be Buffy) and Faith/Spike. Good stuff.

I haven't read it. Do you have a link?

Partly because I'm also turning into a Spangel shipper.

I like Angel and Spike's interactions, and they have a lot of nice moments where I can definitely see where the Spangel shippers are coming from, but I prefer Angel with Darla and Spike with Buffy.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I'm having to google all my links once again because my bookmarks (running into the hundreds at least) were all on the desktop, which is now crispy fried 'puter...

...ok, found it! On AO3, and it includes the gorgeous "poster art" she did for it: "Who Am I? (The Warm Champagne Remix)"
http://archiveofourown.org/works/808962

but I prefer Angel with Darla and Spike with Buffy.

I haven't seen AtS although I've read a lot about it, and Angel/Darla seems more fascinating than Buffy/Angel ever could be. Buffy met Angel when she was 16 years old, new to Slaying, a relative innocent, etc etc; Angel and Darla had 200 (or 100) years of history. That's pretty hard to beat.

Then again I have little interest in Spike/Dru even with their 100 years of history, but this gets back to who I find interesting as characters. Dru mostly exists to serve Spike's story; whereas Buffy and Spike are endlessly fascinating both in their darkness (S6) and their attempts to do right by each other. (S7)

As a viewer I LOVE Buffy and Spike and I read more Spuffy fic than anything else, but as a fiction writer I feel I have nothing to add whatsoever. (And as a non-fiction writer I'm often reluctant to do so, in part because passions overrule reason, and the conversation often becomes ALL ABOUT SPIKE. Even when he's not part of the subject of a post, the minute someone mentions his name, there goes the conversation.)

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link! I'll have to check it out when I have more time.

I agree about Spike/Dru--I think they're a neat couple and I like them together, but my investment is nowhere near the same level as my investment in Buffy/Spike.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

But then we really don't see very much at all of Spike and Dru - when they enter the story they've been together for 100 years then she gets well and mostly hangs around Daddy, then she appears in Crush and FFL only in terms of his story. Whereas Buffy and Spike pack in decades of intense history in a five-year span. (Those crazy kids.)

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Dru gets a bit more screen time in AtS, and her relationship with Darla is pretty interesting there.

There was a poll once that ended up with Drusilla ranked above Darla in "favorite vampires" and one fan who was hugely into AtS could not figure out how that was possible. Obviously, it's because Darla got almost no time on BtVS. I think she should get extra credit for just the first 5 minutes of the show, but if you don't watch AtS, you definitely don't get her full effect.

(I know you're not too keen on watching AtS, which is understandable, but I could steer you toward the episodes that might appeal to you, if you think you might want to sample.)

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I actually have been rather keen to see some of the eps like "Darla" that focus on the fanged four - and I've read about Dru basically re-vamping the human Darla and becoming her grandsire's sire. Metaphorical mothers? Yes please! This is right up my alley.

Which means btw that Dru is the only literal or figurative "mother figure" in either series who isn't killed, aside from Willow and Xander's mothers, who only appear in one episode each anyway. (Joyce, Tara, Cordy, Buffy twice, Darla. Am I missing anyone?)

[tigerpetals.livejournal.com]

Faith might have played that role entirely - you could redo the entire series with Faith in the role of Spike to Buffy

I realized this just recently! Faith is when they started to explicitly play with Slayers having dark sides and what that meant for Buffy. Looking at just the first three seasons, if someone told me both Faith and Spike were coming back, I might think Spike would go to Angel and Faith to Buffy, because of the builtup history and tension between them (Spike's most interesting relationship to anyone in early Buffy is with Angel, at least to me.)

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Faith is when they started to explicitly play with Slayers having dark sides and what that meant for Buffy.

They actually dealt with this a little as early as S1 in Nightmares, and S2's "Ted" (Buffy thinks she's killed a man), an episode which the show calls back to time and again: Consequences, DT, Selfless, etc. But you're right, this is when the theme starts to become front and center. I rewatched a bit of Enemies where Faith says "If you kill me, you become me" - and then watched Dead things again today. Buffy's experience with Faith, and the way Faith "got inside her" figuratively in S3 and literally in S4 (TYG/WAY) is all over the place.

Looking at just the first three seasons, if someone told me both Faith and Spike were coming back, I might think Spike would go to Angel and Faith to Buffy, because of the builtup history and tension between them (Spike's most interesting relationship to anyone in early Buffy is with Angel, at least to me.)

Exactly, I would have thought the same as well.

Spike's most interesting relationship with anyone else besides Buffy is with Angel, which is why I ship them slightly. Not in the sense of seeking out Spangel fanfic (unless something really good falls in to my lap - or B/A/S), but in the sense of acknowledging that it's an interesting dynamic.

[kikimay]

The Spike/Faith combo doesn't work with me. I can see why people like it, but I can't find it attractive or interesting for some reasons (Maybe because Spike and Faith are so similar and they have the same role in Buffy's life) I prefer both with Buffy, in het or femslash.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

*nods in agreement* I think I said above that if they'd kept Faith on they wouldn't have needed Spike, and Spike's presence meant that there was no place for Faith on the show anymore except the occasional appearance in S4 and S7. Which in some ways is too bad, because we're left to piece together a lot of why they feel the way they do about one another, especially in S7. And it all happens a little too quickly (but that's a problem with S7 anyway as the series was winding down. The only way to have gotten around that was to have begun with a plan and stuck with it, but then there were other problems with spin-offs that didn't eventuate and so forth.)

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

I prefer them both with Buffy, too, but the two of them together still interests me.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Both Spike and Faith are pretty much shippable with ANY other character, IMO. They do have a lot of emotional issues in common, it's true, but I don't see that as an impediment to them being good together. Faith is to Buffy as Spike is to Angel, in a lot of ways, and it would help both of them to have somebody for whom they are the primary focus, after being in the shadow of others for so long. Plus, they could indulge in mischief while those around them played the dour and serious roles.

If you are looking for fic, try the Spike/Faith tag on justrewards.com. Everything by anaross is great!

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

Plus, they could indulge in mischief while those around them played the dour and serious roles.

Yes, yes, they could.

Thanks for the rec!

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Faith is to Buffy as Spike is to Angel

This is truth.

And I've been expanding my reading lately - hey, as long as it's good writing, you know? (I never read Xander-centric fics for instance but I just finished eurydice72's "A Stone's Throw from Yesterday" as well as her Faith/Wesley fic "El Santuario" and DAMN that is some damn fine characterization. I had to finish "Stone's Throw" in one day because I was so engrossed in it.)